- How The Grinch Stole the Rivalry
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU v. UMass
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU v. UNLV
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU v. Fresno St.
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU v. SJSU
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU v. ECU
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU v. Mississippi State
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU v. Boise State
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU at Utah State
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU v. Wisconsin
- How BYU’s offense & defense have stacked up since 2005
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU v. Utah
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU v. LSU
- 9-Line Prediction: BYU v. Portland State
- By the Numbers: 2017 Season Preview
BYU joining a P5 conference: I don’t think it will do what you think it will do…
- Updated: April 5, 2016
BYU fans seem to be in a constant state of high anxiety lately over whether BYU will be invited to join the Big 12 or not. I think it’s largely misguided anxiety. Sure, joining a P5 conference has some nice benefits, but it won’t be the magical elixir that solves all of BYU’s problems that many fans seem to be expecting. Here’s why:
Benefits of joining a P5 Conference
- Money. This is the biggest deal. P5 conferences are rolling in money from TV contracts and whatnot. More money helps pay for better equipment, facilities, and coaches.
- Prestige. There is a certain cachet that comes with being a member of a P5 conference. This theoretically helps with recruiting.
- Scheduling. Being in a P5 conference would make Tom Holmoe’s scheduling job easier.
Why the benefits of BYU joining a P5 are overrated
- Money. Extra money would be great for BYU but what will it really do? Get BYU hoops a new practice facility? Already done. Upgrade the Marriott Center? Already done. Upgrade the football facilities or weight rooms? Mostly done. Upgrade LES? Yeah, this one would be nice. Hire or retain coaches BYU really wants? Seems like BYU is pretty happy with the coaches it has currently (although more money could help retain some of them down the road). My point is that while the extra money certainly wouldn’t hurt, money alone is not going to suddenly make BYU’s teams Top 10 powerhouses.
- Prestige (read: recruiting advantages). This whole “prestige” thing mostly matters when it comes to recruiting. Did TCU’s recruiting success skyrocket the minute they joined the Big 12? Not really. They probably got a bump, but it wasn’t exactly earth-shattering. TCU has performed well in football because they’ve hired and retained quality coaches who can both recruit and coach well. Likewise, BYU’s recruiting results will have much more to do with the coaching staff than conference affiliation. BYU’s church connection gives the school an advantage with most Mormon athletes no matter what conference BYU is in, while the BYU honor code will scare off other athletes regardless of conference affiliation. Sure, there might be a minor bump in perceived prestige for BYU after joining a P5, but I don’t believe that alone would make a significant difference in recruiting. Rather, I think recruiting is mostly a function of which coaches BYU has in place. Ask yourself this question: Who do you think will have better recruiting success over the next 5 years: Bronco Mendenhall with the ACC’s Virginia Cavaliers or Kalani Sitake with Independent BYU? Yeah, I chose Kalani too.
- Scheduling. With football, Tom Holmoe and staff have begun putting together tremendous P5-level schedules already. Sure, his job would be easier in a P5 conference (only needing to arrange 3-4 games per year instead of filling a full 12-game schedule), but when it comes to the quality of opponents, the 2016 schedule is already as good as most P5 schedules. In hoops, a P5 conference would help get better teams into the Marriott Center, but it likely wouldn’t make much difference in BYU’s ability to get to the Big Dance consistently.
The claim that football independence is unsustainable is nonsense
Yes, I know Bronco claimed football independence is unsustainable. Bronco was wrong. Football independence will continue for BYU as long as independence remains the best available option — even if that means staying independent for decades to come. And since the money, exposure, and scheduling that football independence provides is vastly superior to what any G5 conference can offer, independence will likely remain the best option for BYU until an offer from a P5 conference arrives.
A P5 offer probably will eventually materialize, but temper expectations
It seems likely to me that BYU will eventually join a P5 conference. Maybe in the next few years. But when that happens, don’t be surprised when BYU still has the same coaches and same players and same recruiting strengths and weaknesses that it has now. If that sounds like bad news to you, here’s the good news– BYU has the potential to be truly excellent in most every sport in or out of a P5 conference. With the talent Dave Rose has coming in next season, fans have every reason to be excited about the next several years of hoops. Likewise, the new BYU football coaching staff has the potential to launch BYU football into a new era of excellence.
And so, while there’s nothing wrong with hoping for a P5 invite, please don’t buy into the propaganda from BYU’s critics that the Cougars can’t thrive in their current situation. Joining a P5 will do less for BYU than fans expect. And if BYU’s new football coaching staff and incoming basketball recruiting classes are anywhere close to as good as we hope, BYU might already be on the cusp of a fantastic run of success in both basketball and football, regardless of P5 conference affiliation.
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80 Comments
About Geoff Johnston
Balata68
April 5, 2016 at 11:10 am
TCU “probably” got a bump? Probably? How about you research it Geoff then come back with your piece. Making an assumption based on a probably is dumb when the numbers are easy to find. Just look them up. You were lazy.
So here they are: In 2016, TCU signed 5 ESPN top-300 recruits, 8 4* players overall, and the rest were all 3*. 0 2* recruits.
Compare that to 2010. where they signed 0 ESPN top 300 players, 2 4* players, 1 2* player and 6 players that were unrated.
You were so lazy, you clowned yourself in this piece. And because you were so lazy on the recruiting end, it is hard to take anything else you wrote seriously, especially about prestige and finances.
Not your best work. C- effort. Maybe D+.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 12:10 pm
TCU’s recruiting rank in 2011, their last year in the MWC? #29
TCU’s recruiting ranking their first 4 years in the Big12? #29, #36, #43, #42
(Per 247sports.com, a recruiting aggregator)
So yeah, TCU “probably” got a bump.
Brandon Felt
April 5, 2016 at 3:27 pm
You conveniently skipped the other HUGE benefits. 1) Automatic access to NY6 and easier road to playoff. 2) Better home games (this year’s schedule is good but we want consistent comletition at LES). 3) Being involved in a conference race. 4) Possible conference championship game.
Those are some lf the most important things fans want and you left them out.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 4:40 pm
Brandon Felt,
1. The “automatic” access is to the team that wins the Big12. That is probably not any easier for BYU than going 12-0 now.
2. See #1. There is no such thing as easy access to the playoffs. The only way to make the playoffs is to be a great team, and joining a P5 won’t automatically make BYU a great team.
Look, we all want a P5 invite. The point of this post is the P5 invite itself does not mean BYU has “arrived”.
BigCougar
April 5, 2016 at 5:52 pm
Pretty disingenuous to pick the best year of recruiting to illustrate your point. TCU had an abnormally good recruiting year in 2011 but in the years before they had terrible recruiting.
2010 – #64
2009 – #54
2008 – #114
2007 – #73
2006 – #73
Even throwing in the wonder year of 2011 and the average for that span before joining the Big 12 was 68th best recruiting class in the nation. Since joining the Big 12 the avg has been 32nd best class. Quite a bump (more than double).
Now as a result of multiple really good recruiting classes combined with great coaching and developing we see TCU regularly featured in the top 10, competing for the playoffs and going to NY6 bowls. That’s quite a benefit.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 7:09 pm
I don’t know what recruiting numbers you are using, but 247sports has TCU averaging a #53 recruiting ranking the 5 years prior to joining the Big12. TCU already had a world class college football coach in place prior to joining the Big12 in Gary Patterson. They were ranked #2 in the country before joining the Big12 due to that great coach.
The point is, joining the Big12 didn’t land TCU a great coach, and didn’t make TCU a top 10 team. Rather, they already had a great coach and great team prior to the Big12 invite. The main thing the extra Big12 money did for TCU was allow them to have enough money to prevent Gary Patterson and staff from being poached by another school.
We’re hoping that Kalani proves to be as successful of a recruiter and coach as Gary Patterson. If he is, BYU will have to cough up more money for him and his staff down the road.
Ralph
April 6, 2016 at 9:35 am
@Geoff
I don’t know what recruiting numbers you are using,…
————————
I was using numbers From Scout. I agree that p5 money would do a lot to boost assistant coach salaries. That would be huge.
I think Kalani blew a large chunk of his assistant coaching budget hiring Ty Detmer and had to make up for it by hiring a lot of inexperienced friends as position coaches.
Hopefully they all pan out but there were other way more experienced higher profile LDS assistant coaches that potentially could’ve been lured away from their p5 teams if BYU could’ve made them a better offer.
Also more money in the program would do a lot for non- revenue generating sports. Maybe even add back some popular sports like wrestling, etc.
Brandon Jones
April 5, 2016 at 12:24 pm
Balata,
Actually you seem to be the one that is mistaken. Nice cherry-picking of stats, by the way. TCU has unquestionably had a bump in recruiting. That was not the point. Geoff’s point was that the bump is due to coaching and on-field performance and not a result of TCU joining the Big 12.
Here’s the proof:
In 2011, after finishing the season with a #2 AP ranking in 2010, TCU’s class was ranked #28 by Scout. This was before joining the Big 12. It was announced that TCU would be joining the Big 12 in October 2011 and TCU finished that season ranked #14 in the AP poll. The TCU 2012 class was ranked #38 by Scout. After 2 seasons unranked in the Top 25, TCU’s recruiting classes in 2013 and 2014 were ranked #43 and #38 respectively. Since that time, TCU has had two outstanding seasons (finishing in the Top 10 in both 2014 and 2015), leading to recruiting classes ranked #27 and #16.
Yes, there is a difference between TCU’s recruiting classes in 2010 and 2016. But, that difference is not as a result of joining the Big 12. It is a result of better on-field performance and coaching. The recruiting classes after joining the Big 12 were actually worse than the class immediately before.
Starfox207
April 5, 2016 at 11:34 am
Hmm Go Pirates!! Purple and Gold.
Adam
April 5, 2016 at 12:12 pm
I think you underestimate how much money can help a program. Do you know the story of Oklahoma State? In a nutshell, OSU was kind of a joke until T. Boone Pickens took an interest in the Cowboys. He asked the AD how much money it would take to get OSU to an elite level to start competing with OU and Texas. The AD told him, the number was in the hundreds of millions, and Pickens donated that amount.
OSU used the money to build the right facilities, hire the right coaches and make the right changes to the point that they are now an elite football school.
Money is fuel for top-tier athletic programs. If BYU wants to play with the big boys, they need money. A lot more money than independence will ever give them.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 12:26 pm
Money mostly helps schools hire and retain excellent coaches — coaches who can recruit well and get the most out of players when they arrive in the program. Smaller programs often get excellent coaches but after those coaches prove themselves they tend to get poached by schools with more money.
BYU is in a unique situation where BYU has a vastly smaller pool of potential head coaches to begin with. More money for BYU would not make that candidate pool increase massively. Also, BYU tends to attract coaches who are BYU guys and who would like to stay at BYU for a long time. So while more money would make it easier to keep some assistant coaches from getting poached, the other benefits of the extra money are muted in Provo.
michael
April 6, 2016 at 5:50 am
Everyone looks at Football and Basketball and tend to forget that BYU has great athletes and teams in their other sports; Men’s and Women’s Volleyball, Baseball, Track, Rugby, Soccer and so on
monkeycowboy
April 5, 2016 at 12:59 pm
I think you didn’t hit on the biggest reason BYU needs into a P5 conf. BYU needs the security that a P5 conf brings. There have been talks about the P5 potentially leaving the G5 behind BYU doesnt want to be on the G5 side of the Gulf.
BYU is an absolutely better Athletic program than the Vandys, or Washington States or Wake Forests of the P5 world. What those schools have is the stability and comfort of knowing that they could still someday have a shot at a national championship because they are in the club.
BYU would have to string together multiple undefeated seasons to even maybe sniff a title game. Heck going undefeated isnt a guarantee at a NY6 game. In a P5 conf you can have even 1 or 2 loses and still make those big name bowls.
Sure money, and recruiting and scheduling being easier are all nice but the angst in cougar nation is due to us being unsure what happens if we cant join the “big boys” in actual name and not just by replicating them in independence (which has been fun for travelling to games etc). We dont want to see the program slowly die and stagnate as we drift into Utah State levels of irrelevance.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 1:09 pm
That’s a fair point, monkeycowboy. For many fans, the anxiety will persist until BYU is safely inside a P5 conference. Unfortunately, BYU can’t control if or when that happens. So until then we can take some comfort in the fact that the sky hasn’t fallen yet and there is a decent chance the sky never actually will fall on programs outside of the P5.
DJ
April 5, 2016 at 1:18 pm
This felt a little bipolar on some points. Money is declared “the biggest deal”. Then in the next paragraph you ask “but what will it really do?” Yes, BYU is now building a practice facility. But they were raising money for it at least as far back as 2013 when it came up in Holmoe Q&A sessions. The ones who minimize the value of money are usually those who don’t have it. And no, having P5 conference money would not make BYU teams “Top 10 powerhouses”. But neither does independence and NOT having P5 money. So how is that point relevant?
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 2:34 pm
DJ — The money is the most important of those three benefits I listed. But given the unique nature of BYU as an institution, even the benefits of more money are muted at BYU.
As for BYU fielding top 10 teams, I think it’s the quality of the coaching staffs (and their recruiting skills) that determine that. Thus, TCU and Utah had top 10 season while still in the MWC — because they had excellent coaches in place.
CW
April 5, 2016 at 2:10 pm
Wow. The only thing that really matters is the money. Consider taking a basic online finance primer for the simple math behind this: An extra $10M+ per YEAR would instantly INCREASE the net PRESENT value of BYU athletics by at least $100,000,000. In one practical example, it would mean BYU could pay market value for coaches, staff, etc. In the longer term, can you imagine some of the competitive disadvantages BYU will have when Utah and all other P5 teams have an EXTRA $10M+ per year to spend / capitalize for investment? If you think there is a P5 gap now, what do you think it will be in 10 or 20 years (Utah will have amassed at least an extra $200,000,000 from their conference in 20 years)? BYU will be irrelevant on the national scene with that much of a disadvantage financially every-single-year.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 4:13 pm
CW,
You seem to think you’re disagreeing with what I wrote… You’re really not. I already said the money is the most important of the benefits. However, that benefit is mitigated somewhat at BYU due to the unique aspects of the school.
LouisD.
April 5, 2016 at 2:16 pm
We are in agreement 100%. I would even add another tworld trade-offs that BYU fans and staff must consider.
1.The likely P5 Big12 may not be as attractive in terms of realize scheduling. While WVa adds a lot of ditance, it gets the B12 out of the sagebrush and corn belt every other year. The B12 is, well, BORING. The best attraction might be the world’s largest ball of twine without WVa and Wash DC close by. Independence has BYU as a P5 Equal, a Notre Dame like Schedule tgat is diverse and interesting. It includes dates from the Atlantic to Hawaii, not play row to plow row.
2. BYU solely control its OWN media destiny. Nobody right no can tell BYU what sports it can broadcast except ESPN and then as directly negotiated with no conference middleman. It might be difficult to let go of that freedom. BYUTV is in 60 million homes and on the WWW internationally. The exposure valentine is far greater than BYU fans realize. BYU has the opportunity to go out and directly sell up sponsorship among corporate giants (FORD, GM, DODGE, TOYOTA, ETC.) . Don’t underestimate this potential that current management has not likely realized is possible. I only mentioned autos, but high tech suppliers, IKEA, RCWilly, etc…are just the tip of the ice berg when it comes to potential sponsorship. BYUtv is mainly an internship training in broadcast media and journalism so perhaps it is not yet managed like a normal commercial venture would be. But I believe the five year potential for revenue there could double every year for a decade if managed properly. Based on the sports programming portion of the total revenue stream, BYU athletic could cover everything it isn’t getting outside a B12 affiliation and then some. The BOT’S gave to be thinking of this reality as well.
Bottom line, BYUtv may need better media production msnagement but Independence does seem sustainable LT with smart aggressive marketing an poetry management people in place.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 4:21 pm
LouisD,
I still think being in a P5 is BYU’s best option. If the Big12 invites, BYU should and will accept. My point with this post is that joining a P5 is not going to be the Shangri La many BYU fans seem to be envisioning. It will have benefits, but they won’t be as big as lots of folks expect.
LouisD.
April 5, 2016 at 2:18 pm
Boy I hate auto correct assumptions that make me look like an idiot.
LouisD.
April 5, 2016 at 2:19 pm
Seriously…how do we stop auto correction. It’s like Droid just changes any word it likes.
Matt
April 5, 2016 at 2:48 pm
Wow, your article is a piece of crap. Money is huge no matter what school. You can’t just shrug off the money part and say its BYU it doesn’t matter. Recruiting soul definitely get better, top tier LDS recruits would be more inclined to come to BYU because they would be in a P5 conference. To say that independence is sustainable is a joke. If BYU loses one game, the season I over, there is mo conference championship to play for, no hope of post season play. If BYU doesn’t ever get in a P5 conference. BYU might as well get rid of athletics.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 4:20 pm
Matt,
Wow, your reading comprehension skills are remedial. I said above that money does matter and is the most important of the three benefits. However, money mostly matters to the extent that it allows BYU to hire and retain the coaches it wants. Right now BYU has already hired the coaches it wants.
Jay
April 5, 2016 at 3:26 pm
Scheduling the games in October and November is difficult as an Independent. Other P-5 schools have their conference games to play during these two months. As a result BYU home schedule will always be not as attractive.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 4:24 pm
I agree. And I said as much in the post.
Todd Knight
April 5, 2016 at 3:31 pm
You make some fair points, however, you are ignoring the most crucial reason for joining a P5 conference. Easier access to play for the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. Yes, it is not impossible to get into the playoffs in the current state of independence, but being a part of a P5 conference would ease that path. Either way, we still have to win football games, but losing one in a P5 conference is not the death sentence for getting into the playoffs, but losing one in independence is. That alone is the reason P5 inclusion is the most glaring argument for joining and one you completely ignored in your analysis.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 4:29 pm
I don’t think getting to the CFB playoffs is “easy” for any team, P5 or not. The most important requirement to make the playoffs is to be a truly great team. That normally means a 12-0 season against a hard schedule. Joining a P5 conference won’t make BYU a great team and hard schedules are possible now. So BYU making the playoffs remains a very long shot in or out of a P5.
walthanssen
April 5, 2016 at 3:48 pm
Both Coach Mendenhall & Tom Holmoe said they cannot sustain football in Independence. For me, they had or have their hand on the pulse and know much better than you or I, Plus you are leaving out all of the other sports e.g. would Rose rather play in A P5 conference or the WCC? P5 is a no brainer for any every sport! Finally, the days of getting all the top LDS recruits are over and even if they could they can’t compete without good to great non-LDS SA’s.
As far as, TCU was ranked in the top 10 while in the MWC beginning 08 then moved to the Big 12 in 2012, were unranked the first two years and then ranked #2 in 14 & #7 last year.
Bronco went 6-6, 11-2, 11-2, 10-3, 11-2 & 7-6 in MWC (56-77 & ,727) & 10-3, 8-5, 8-5, 8-5 & 9-4 in Independence (43-65 & .662). He got every ounce of talent & energy out of his players and he could see that he wasn’t going to be able to get into the top 25 let alone the top 10 every year at BYU.
Finally, there were very few good home games the during the independence run and virtually one in late October and November; you can’t sustain attendance at LES on those kinds of schedules.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 4:33 pm
Saying the independence is unsustainable doesn’t make it true. What happens if no P5 ever invites? Does BYU football just close shop? Does it evaporate? I don’t think so.
No one is claiming BYU wouldn’t prefer to be in a P5. The point here is joining a P5 won’t be the land of milk and honey many fans seem to be expecting.
keylimesoda (@keylimesoda)
April 5, 2016 at 8:01 pm
I still don’t think G5 is off the table of independence “fails”. The amount of attention given a Boise State would be more than enough for BYU.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 8:07 pm
Sure, if the day comes that joining a G5 is BYU’s best option, BYU would surely do it. But I doubt that day will ever come. Independence is clearly a better option than G5 currently.
walthanssen
April 5, 2016 at 8:20 pm
You are absolutely correct, if we don’t get get an invite we will have to keep going. What I think Bronco and Tom mean is that if we stay as an independent we won’t be able to sustain 10+ winning seasons and top 25 rankings. Furthermore, ask any Ute coach, player or fan ifthey would go back to the MWC or go independent and I doubt you will find one person who would agree. Utah problem now is not just football, men’s basketball and gymnastics (their three best sports) but being competitive in all sports, men & women.
If you look at the Director’s Cup which totals points in all NCAA sports, BYU always finishes higher than Utah every year and is the most competitive non P5 athletic program and better than about 40% of the PF schools.
http://www.nacda.com/directorscup/nacda-directorscup-current-scoring.html
Name me one sport (men’s or women’s) who wouldn’t prefer competing in a P5 conference versus the WCC or other places where we compete…maybe men’s volleyball but that’s it.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 8:38 pm
Walt,
Why would staying independent make it harder for BYU football to get 10+ wins and top 25 rankings? If anything, the last 5 years for Utah has shown that joining a P5 can make winning harder. Utah missed bowl games a couple of times in those 5 years if I remember correctly.
Again, no one is saying joining a P5 is not desirable. I’m mostly saying it just won’t be the Shangri-La many fans expect.
walthanssen
April 6, 2016 at 10:55 pm
OK I see where Geoff is going with this which is strictly football of I’ll address this in two ways:
1. Football Only: Salani and Tom want the football team to be in the top 25 as often as possible and so do we. Can this be achieved better as an Independent or in a P5 conference? Well let’s look at last years rankings: in the AP 10 teams got in with 10-3 records and three with 4 losses and lets see what kinds of conferences they came from:
AP
10 Ole Miss 10-3 (SEC)
11 Notre Dame 10-3 (Ind)
12 Michigan 10-3 (Big Ten)
13 Baylor 10-3 (Big 12)
14 Florida State 10-3 (ACC)
15 North Carolina 11-3 (ACC)
16 LSU 9-3 (SEC)
17 Utah 10-3 (Pac12)
19 Oregon 9-4 (Pac12)
20 Oklahoma State 10-3 (Big 12)
21 Wisconsin 10-3 (Big Ten)
22 Tennessee 9-4 (SEC)
23 Northwestern 10-3 (Big 10)
25 Florida 10-4 (SEC)
Two non-P5 Navy & Western Kentucky got in with 2 losses
Cocaches
9 Ole Miss 10-3 SEC
11 Michigan10-3 Big Ten
12 Notre Dame 10-3 Ind
13 Baylor 10-3 Big 12
14 Florida State 10-3 ACC
15 North Carolina 11-3 ACC
16 Utah 10-3 Pac12
17 LSU 9-3 SEC
19 Oklahoma State 10-3 Big 12
20 Oregon 9-4 Pac12
21 Wisconsin 10-3 Big Ten
22 Northwestern 10-3 Big 10
23 Tennessee 9-4 SEC
24 Georgia 10-3 SEC
25 Florida 10-4
Non P5 Houston got in 13-1 & Navy got in 11-2
OK where does BYU have a better chance getting in with 2-3 losses? Not Ind because are schedule hasn’t been tough enough. The P5 teams play at least 9 games in conference and the other three are easy. Lets look at our last year’s and next year’s schedule:
1. 2015: 4 P5, 7 Mid Major (only one ranked team) & 1 FB
2. 2016: 6 P5, 4 Mid Major & 2 FB
I’m sorry but there chance of getting in with 3 – 4 losses is much worse than if they were in a P5 conference no doubt about it.
2. All Sports: right now we are Ind, WCC & a few other places. Does it benefit all our sports to be in a P5 conference? With the exception of Men’s volleyball absolutely yes. Women’s soccer and men’s and women’s basketball suffer from being in the WCC and probably baseball & softball also.
3. Conclusion: P5 brings more money, recognition, prestige, coaches and recruiting. I seriously doubt that Geoff can explain his way out of t But, if this wasn’t enough, any school at any level wants to play in the best conference available and neither the WAC, MWC & Ind fit this scenario.
4. In case you BYU fans are unaware of the NACDA Directors Cup (overall Division 1 athletic standings of all sports combined, here it is for the Fall of this year and 2014-2015:
Fall 2016:
Rank Institution Conference Division Final W. CC M. CC W. FH FBS FB FCS FB W. SOC M. SOC W. VB M. WP
Fall Pl. Pts. Pl. Pts. Pl. Pts. Pl. Pts. Pl. Pts. Pl. Pts. Pl. Pts. Pl. Pts. Pl. Pts.
1 Stanford Pac 12 FBS 479.50 14 61.5 3 85 9 25 3 85 0 0 5 73 1 100 17 50 0 0
2 Syracuse ACC FBS 347.50 12 64.5 1 100 1 100 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 83 0 0 0 0
3 North Carolina ACC FBS 342.00 32 28 0 0 2 90 15 60 0 0 17 50 9 64 17 50 0 0
4 Michigan Big Ten FBS 318.50 6 73.5 9 69 5 60 11 66 0 0 0 0 0 0 17 50 0 0
5 UCLA Pac 12 FBS 300.50 0 0 14 61.5 0 0 51 25 0 0 0 0 17 50 9 64 1 100
6 Virginia ACC FBS 295.00 15 60 22 52 5 60 0 0 0 0 5 73 17 50 0 0 0 0
7 Minnesota Big Ten FBS 289.00 18 56 19 55 0 0 26 45 0 0 17 50 0 0 3 83 0 0
8 Washington Pac 12 FBS 281.00 10 67.5 8 70.5 0 0 26 45 0 0 33 25 0 0 5 73 0 0
9 Notre Dame ACC FBS 275.00 8 70.5 32 26 0 0 12 64.5 0 0 17 50 9 64 0 0 0 0
10 Penn State Big Ten FBS 273.50 16 58.5 32 26 0 0 51 25 0 0 1 100 0 0 9 64 0 0
11 Ohio State Big Ten FBS 272.00 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 80 0 0 9 64 9 64 9 64 0 0
12 Florida State ACC FBS 267.50 32 28 29 45 0 0 14 61.5 0 0 3 83 0 0 17 50 0 0
13 BYU WCC FBS 254.50 23 51 12 64.5 0 0 51 25 0 0 17 50 0 0 9 64 0 0
14 USC Pac 12 FBS 252.00 0 0 0 0 0 0 51 25 0 0 9 64 0 0 5 73 2 90
15 Oregon Pac 12 FBS 244.00 3 85 4 80 0 0 20 54 0 0 0 0 0 0 33 25 0 0
16 Michigan State Big Ten FBS 235.50 13 63 25 49 0 0 6 73.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 17 50 0 0
17 Clemson ACC FBS 230.00 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 90 0 0 17 50 2 90 0 0 0 0
18 UConn American FBS 222.00 0 0 0 0 3 83 51 25 0 0 9 64 17 50 0 0 0 0
19 Duke ACC FBS 218.00 0 0 0 0 3 83 26 45 0 0 2 90 0 0 0 0 0 0
20 Princeton Ivy League FCS 214.00 21 53 32 26 5 60 0 0 0 0 17 50 0 0 0 0 5 25
21 Florida SEC FBS 212.00 0 0 32 26 0 0 25 49 0 0 9 64 0 0 5 73 0 0
22 Georgetown Big East FCS 210.50 20 54 10 67.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 33 25 9 64 0 0 0 0
23 California Pac 12 FBS 193.50 0 0 23 51 0 0 26 45 0 0 33 25 0 0 0 0 3 72.5
24 Louisville ACC FBS 192.00 0 0 7 72 9 25 26 45 0 0 0 0 0 0 17 50 0 0
25 Arkansas SEC FBS 187.50 9 69 6 73.5 0 0 26 45 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
26 Boston College ACC FBS 186.00 32 28 0 0 5 60 0 0 0 0 33 25 5 73 0 0 0 0
27 Oklahoma State Big 12 FBS 183.00 7 72 18 56 0 0 19 55 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
28 Colorado Pac 12 FBS 180.00 2 90 2 90 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
29 Ole Miss SEC FBS 177.00 0 0 30 44 0 0 9 69 0 0 9 64 0 0 0 0 0 0
30 Texas Big 12 FBS 176.00 31 43 31 43 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 90 0 0
31 Texas A&M SEC FBS 174.00 0 0 32 26 0 0 51 25 0 0 5 73 0 0 17 50 0 0
31 Tulsa American FBS 174.00 29 45 20 54 0 0 51 25 0 0 0 0 17 50 0 0 0 0
33 Boise State Mountain West FBS 169.50 11 66 16 58.5 0 0 26 45 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
34 Auburn SEC FBS 163.00 32 28 32 26 0 0 26 45 0 0 9 64 0 0 0 0 0 0
35 North Carolina State ACC FBS 146.00 5 75 28 46 0 0 51 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2014-15 Final:
BYU 48th, Utah 55th and we were ahead of 35% of P5 schools and 1st among non P5 schools.
Do we deserve to be in a P5 conference? Absolutely yes and there are no reason to stay Ind and in WCC.
Geoff Johnston
April 6, 2016 at 11:36 pm
Walt,
If your main point is that BYU joining a P5 is the most desirable outcome, you’re pretty much preaching to the choir with most of that long comment. I completely agree, and always have agreed, that a P5 invite is desirable for BYU. If that invite comes BYU should and would accept and I’d be thrilled about it.
The point of this piece is spelled out pretty clearly throughout the post: “joining a P5 conference has some nice benefits, but it won’t be the magical elixir that solves all of BYU’s problems that many fans seem to be expecting”
Of course BYU has no control over getting an invite, so until an invite comes independence is the answer. And independence is still much better than G5 membership on all sorts of levels.
walthanssen
April 6, 2016 at 11:30 pm
Geoff, getting 10 wins as an independent is not he same value as getting 10 wins in a P5 conference…see my latest post prior to this. I think I proved this case brilliantly if I may say so.
Geoff Johnston
April 6, 2016 at 11:40 pm
Some years it is, some years it isn’t. It depends entirely on how hard the indie schedule is in any given year. Notre Dame deals with this same strength of schedule question every season as a football independent.
walthanssen
April 7, 2016 at 12:21 pm
Geoff- You have not responded to these last two comments. Sending me twitter messages admitting I’m correct doesn’t cut it. For the last time:
1. an independent schedule will never compare to a P5 schedule (find me one that has 9 P5 games)
2. all sports deserve to be in a P5 conference (Gonzaga had to win the WCC tournament this year to make the NCAAT and St. Mary’s and BYU got shut out even though they both had 25+ wins…but guess what SOS is poor in WCC)
3. We are tired of having a poor SOS in late October and November because P5 teams are in conference games; yes Notre Dame can schedule USC & Stanford every year because they are ND…we can’t get P5 games during that time period except Missouri at neutral site) and home game attendance is never close to being filled and worse than that even those who paid don’t come
4.Last but not least, yes you bet we want a top 25 finish or better every year and guess what, so do the coaches and players!
Take all of this to the bank, deposit it and you will be a rich man!
Caleb Wilkes (@Caleb_D_Wilkes)
April 5, 2016 at 4:40 pm
Getting into a P5 conference would make a huge difference for basketball. The BYU men’s basketball schedule this year was lousy. Because so many teams make it into the NCAA men’s basketball tournament, there is not a huge need for the P5 teams to upgrade their non-conference schedule. Thus, they are rarely looking for non-conference home and home’s, especially with a non-P5 school. BYU men’s basketball is finding it incredibly difficult to get any top 50 teams to come to Provo. If BYU had been in the PAC 12 or BIG 12 this season, they probably would have got into the tourney because they would have had many more chances to get top 50 wins and have a chance to play a top 50 team in Provo. BYU was about as good as Oregon St. this season. Oregon St. got a 7 seed mainly because they won a few games in a tough conference.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 4:42 pm
I agree that joining a P5 would make scheduling easier. I said as much in the post.
Caleb Wilkes (@Caleb_D_Wilkes)
April 5, 2016 at 4:48 pm
You also said that “In hoops, a P5 conference would help get better teams into the Marriott Center, but it likely wouldn’t make much difference in BYU’s ability to get to the Big Dance consistently.” I believe your statement is absolutely false. Exclusion of Valparaiso and Monmouth and St. Mary’s this season make it absolutely clear that is much easier to get into the Big Dance from a top 5 or 6 conference.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 4:52 pm
BYU makes the Big Dance almost every year already. The only years BYU hasn’t made it under Dave Rose is when the team has botched things themselves. Access to the NCAA Tourney is the least of BYU’s problems right now.
Caleb Wilkes (@Caleb_D_Wilkes)
April 5, 2016 at 4:42 pm
Plus getting into the BIG 12 for basketball increases our chances of landing the elite Mormon recruits like Jabari Parker or Frank Jackson. The Big 12 was a top 3 or 4 conference. Recruits would be willing to play in a league where Kansas and Oklahoma and Texas play. Still may lose some to ACC, but its almost certain those very elite recruits do not want to play in the WCC where we are locked into 12 or so games each season of teams that are 150+ in the RPI.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 4:50 pm
This is a fine example of vastly overestimating the impact of joining the Big12. You think that when BYU is going head to head with the legendary Coach K and a blue blood hoops program like Duke for a top athlete that BYU joining the Big12 would make a Jabari Parker say, “no thanks Coach K, who needs Duke and the ACC when I can have BYU and the Big12”? I don’t think so. If a kid is going to turn down Coach K for BYU it’s going to be because that kid wants the BYU experience, not because of the conference BYU is in.
Caleb Wilkes (@Caleb_D_Wilkes)
April 5, 2016 at 5:16 pm
I said it “increases our chances”. That is absolutely a true statement. BYU is almost immediately excluded from the elite recruits because they do not want to play in the WCC. kansas from the BIG 12 draws plenty of elite recruits.
Even in the recent years when BYU makes it into the tournament, they have to sweat it out on the bubble. When BYU is a member of the WCC for basketball, at the start of each season more than 60% of their games are of little benefit. Win them and they don’t count for much because they are supposed to be an easy win. Lose them and the game is a horrible loss.
I generally agree with the points of your article for football. Its much harder to crack the tournament for football. The percentage of teams making it to either a NY6 bowl or the playoff is 50% smaller than the percentage of teams making it to the NCAA tournament.
Jumping up a conference will make a much bigger deal in basketball than it would in football.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 5:27 pm
We agree BYU joining a P5 would help hoops recruiting some. I just think it would only help a little. Dave Rose tends to get the vast majority of top LDS hoops players he wants now. The WCC certainly hasn’t stopped Mark Few from recruiting great players. It hasn’t stopped Dave Rose from recruiting great players either, as evidenced by the incoming class.
BigCougar
April 5, 2016 at 5:58 pm
“You think that when BYU is going head to head with the legendary Coach K and a blue blood hoops program like Duke for a top athlete that BYU joining the Big12 would make a Jabari Parker say, “no thanks Coach K, who needs Duke and the ACC when I can have BYU and the Big12”? I don’t think so. If a kid is going to turn down Coach K for BYU it’s going to be because that kid wants the BYU experience, not because of the conference BYU is in.”
————————–
If the kid wants both to play in a top conference against the best competition with national exposure AND have the BYU experience then I could see a kid saying no to a Coach K. The fact that kids like Frank J and Jabari P have kept BYU in their final 3-4 choices means there was something they really liked about BYU and something they really didn’t like. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say they liked the idea of the BYU experience but were turned off by the thought of playing in the WCC. If BYU could offer both the p5 AND BYU experience there’s a improved chance to land a kid like Jabari or Frank. Remember, Frank was committed to BYU once upon a time because he wanted the BYU experience but once he realized that he could play with the best players in the nation, BYU’s NOT being in a p5 conference made him reconsider.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 7:13 pm
I doubt that BYU being in the Big12 would have swayed Jabari away from Coach K. I suspect the same is true for Jackson. There’s no way to know for sure on those two.
I do know that BYU in the WCC was able to land, Mika, Haws, Emery, and host of other highly recruited LDS players though so things aren’t too bad now.
BigCougar
April 5, 2016 at 8:55 pm
and don’t underestimate the value of more resources in your program. Yes, BYU has nice facilities. Could they be even better? Sure, like you mentioned we could do some improvements at LES. Where the money would make a bigger difference is in hiring assistant coaches. BYU lags well behind Utah in their ability to pay assistant coaches. Being able to attract, hire and keep better quality assistant coaches will make the teams at BYU better.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 9:07 pm
BigCougar,
You’re acting like I said BYU shouldn’t join a P5. Read the article again — I’ve never said that. I totally agree that joining a P5 would be a good thing. I simply contend that a year after BYU joins a P5 conference a lot of BYU fans will look around and realize not much has changed at all for the school’s programs.
Darren
April 5, 2016 at 6:02 pm
Who are these fans that think if we are invited that we will automatically become a top 10 program? I don’t think i’ve talked to any fans that have said that. There might be a minority that think we’ll become a big powerhouse with an invite, but that is probably very few. Maybe a more consistent top 25 team are what people are talking about, but most people are excited about having a better home schedule and being “able” to compete for a conference title even if we stumble and lose a game.
In regards to the “unsustainable” comment. It really depends on what goals are unsustainable. Most people think that means financial goals, but when Bronco and Tom said that I got the feeling that they were talking about fan support, not finances. BYU could field a team in independence for the next century, but they will not have the same fan support that they’ve enjoyed during the lavell years unless they get an invite.
BYU has the coaches they want because the money they have dictates that. What other P5 team hires a 1st time head coach, 1st time OC, and 1st time DC. Not too mention the lack of experience with other coaches.
Money will help with all of these problems, but your article makes it sound like everybody is thinking BYU will be competing for the NC every year
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 7:18 pm
Having a better home schedule is a completely legitimate wish — especially for season ticket holders. That’s a great reason to hope for a P5 invite.
As for fans not supporting BYU if BYU remains independent — I think you’re underestimating the loyalty of Cougar fans. I think BYU fans will remain loyal until doomsday, P5 or not. It Cubs fans can do it, BYU fans can.
As for coaching hires, BYU is a unique school. BYU will only hire active LDS coaches so the candidate pool is vastly smaller and different than the other schools you are talking about.
Aaron Brewster
April 5, 2016 at 10:01 pm
If you listen to sports radio you’ve probably heard both Kyle Whittingham and Gary Patterson state how P5 clout has allowed them to recruit depth–which has been BYU’s Achilles heel for years. In addition to depth, BYU might hold on to more of the elite LDS talent.
As for scheduling, TH has done a great job, but these front loaded schedules with too many 2-1s and 1&dones is not favorable and on equal footing with a P5 conference slate. In a P5 league BYU would enjoy perpetual home-and-homes with its conference fellows and be in a negotiating position where it never has to accept an uneven series again.
Also lost is the importance of playing for a conference title.
Look, I enjoy independence and agree that it’s sustainable as long as it’s the better option than G5 membership. A spot in a P5 league likely would not launch BYU to perennial top-15 status, but to imply that the impact would be insignificant is really quite silly. But it is an “if” so for now I’ll just enjoy watching the Indy Cougars roam the country.
Geoff Johnston
April 5, 2016 at 10:44 pm
1. Perhaps I have more faith in Kalani’s recruiting prowess than others, but I think that he’ll recruit very well at indie BYU. Sure joining a P5 might help a bit, but I’d guess even in that case the recruiting success would still be 90% Kalani and maybe 10% P5 inclusion.
2. As I’ve said, P5 would definitely help with home scheduling. Tom’s job would be easier and home schedule would get more big games (although less variety).
3. I guess I’m less impressed by conference races than a lot of other fans. That’s ok.
4. “Insignificant” is sort of a subjective assessment on the impact of joining a P5. I think it would be plenty significant. My point is mostly that from our perspective as fans it won’t be nearly as earth shattering as most fans seem to be anticipating.
Aaron Brewster
April 6, 2016 at 7:57 pm
Your points are very reasonable. Based on your reply to DCMoore, I’d agree that it’s overkill to think BYU is doomed without Big 12 membership. Honestly, I would celebrate Big 12 membership and think it would give a boost to BYU athletics, but I’d rather see independence grow to the point where it’s favorable over Big 12 membership. I prefer the variety to conference intrigue. But that’s probably wishful thinking. We’ll see.
Geoff Johnston
April 6, 2016 at 11:37 pm
Amen, Aaron. Amen.
DJ
April 6, 2016 at 9:12 am
I regularly visit loyalcougars–don’t get me wrong. But it has been a long time since I’ve seen the author of an opinion article spend so much time in the comments section debating with readers about their thoughts on the article (right or wrong)–or calling them “remedial” readers. I don’t get the need to have the last word in the comments since you had the entire article to articulate your opinion. 🙂
Geoff Johnston
April 6, 2016 at 10:46 am
Well I consider this a discussion, so I am discussing with those who take the time to engage.
Also, when a knucklehead like that Matt person leads off his comment with a baseless insult, I am happy to point out his obviously remedial reading skills.
David C. Moore
April 6, 2016 at 10:12 am
Probably Geoff what you’re getting at is any further league alignment surrounding the Big 12 at this point will merely be positioning for the next round of realignment. The Big 12 wants to get a leg up on the ACC knowing there will likely be a pairing down of a P5 to a P4. Is it the Big 12 or the ACC that becomes the next Big East?
The Big 12 wants to position itself to retain Texas & Oklahoma from defecting to the Pac-12. BYU could well be a key addition to strengthen the Big 12 to insure that, and Baylor has longed for BYU inclusion in the Big 12 since it’s inception in 1994.
Despite gaining Notre Dame for other sports, the ACC faces the prospect of the B1G taking an interest in North Carolina, Duke & Virginia & possibly Georgia Tech, not to mention the “white whale of Notre Dame” in this next round.
Tom Holmoe and Kevin Worthen now face significantly less opposition to join the Big 12 from those in BYU governance than they did 5 years ago given the track record of independence and some attrition at that level that has taken place over the past year.
Geoff Johnston
April 6, 2016 at 10:52 am
You’re probably right about conference shifts coming down the road, David. I’m not really looking that far ahead in this piece. I’m mostly reacting the what seems like a prevailing attitude among BYU fans that BYU is broken now and will only be made whole and perfect by a P5 invite. I believe that the idea that BYU is broken now as an independent is incorrect and the idea that joining a P5 will be like entering Nirvana is wishful thinking.
Walt Hanssen
April 7, 2016 at 2:03 am
Geoff each of us realizes that everything isn’t going to magically change in one year. It took Utah and TCU 2-3 years to come up to speed. Here is the only thing I don’t agree with in your article:
“Sure joining a P5 conference has some nice benefits, but it won’t be the magical elixir that solves all of BYU’s problems that many fans seem to be expecting.”
That’s the problem with your article in the first place. Who said what the problems are that will magically be solved? None of us believe we will be top 10 in every sport in one year. We, the coaches and players want to play the best competition possible and we want equal share of the money from TV contracts. Holmoe already concluded that we can’t compete financially staying independent. He’s the AD, he knows what we can do and not do.
Finally he can get the big donors easier if we are in a P5 than in independence that I now for sure.
Geoff Johnston
April 7, 2016 at 10:33 am
That’s fine. There’s some hyperbole in my claim that fans are hoping joining a P5 will largely solve all of BYU’s problems. That hyperbole was by design here, but I think there is enough truth in it to make for an interesting discussion.
Further, I think there is value is realizing the chasm between indie BYU and P5 BYU is much smaller than most folks realize.
I suspect that this really boils down to a correlation vs. causation error for many people. Fans look at the success TCU and Utah have in football and tend to assume that joining a P5 created that success. But that’s not really true. Both of those programs were extremely successful prior to joining a P5. TCU was in the top 10 three straight years as a member of the MWC and Utah reached #2 in the country in the MWC. I think the coaches are mostly what caused the success at those schools. Joining a P5 just helped them keep the coaches and stay good (especially TCU)
walthanssen
April 7, 2016 at 12:28 pm
OK now you are talking sense and by the way, touche for writing a story by design that has brought out fans in mass to debate with you; that;s the key in this correct? Otherwise if you write an article with no comments, what does that bring? “Don’t start nothin, won’t be nothin!”
GO COUGS ONWARD AND UPWARD TO AN UNDEFEATED SEASON SINCE STRIVE FOR PERFECTION IN 08!
walthanssen
April 7, 2016 at 12:37 pm
Maybe in your mind but not in the minds of the college playoff committee…last time I checked, they are all AD’s or former P5 people. There have been a ton of articles written since the forming of the P5 that anyone outside looking in (except ND) is on the wrong side of town with lower property values. Not fair but that’s the way it is. In fact, if you really want to know, the best thing for us in every way would be to be in the Pac12, logistically especially but I realize that the one thing good about independence has been to play all over the country and with ESPN as our partner that put us in a lot of homes, But, it was sad that we didn’t get more fans to Arrowhead stadium but in CA, OR, WA & AZ we draw many more people.
Peace out!
Geoff Johnston
April 7, 2016 at 1:15 pm
There is nothing magical about Notre Dame when it comes to the playoffs. If they win out against a hard schedule they have a good chance of making the playoffs. Same is true for BYU. The key for indie BYU to making the playoffs is to make the schedule impressive (like it is in 2016) and then go 12-0. That is pretty similar to the key for most P5 schools every year too (although 12-1 would do the trick for schools in the toughest conferences).
walthanssen
April 7, 2016 at 1:25 pm
Not in the eyes of the P5, College football playoff committee, AP, USA Coaches polls
walthanssen
April 7, 2016 at 2:04 pm
I have replied twice to your last comment but I see that they are not in chronological order (my last one was today at 1:25 pm and your last one was today at 10:29 am???
Walt Hanssen
April 7, 2016 at 9:17 am
Geoff you are arguing for the sake of arguing re my comment about the difference between an independent schedule vs a P5…look at last year, this year and all the way out past 2020 and you will find that the most P5 games we play in any given year is 6 and most years it’s 4. The P5 conferences play at least 9 and College Playoff Committee has said strength of schedule will be the key so they want the other three non league games to be competitive, not gimmes. Finally we are not Notre Dame and never will have their credibility and schedule. Quit beating a dead horse, you’ve lost on this particular issue. AN INDIE SCHEDULE WILL NEVER COMPARE TO A P5 SCHEDULE! Please concede & move on!
Geoff Johnston
April 7, 2016 at 10:29 am
Walt, the 2016 BYU football schedule does indeed compare favorably to a P5 schedule. Objecting to that fact, even in all caps, does not make it less true.
mike
April 7, 2016 at 4:03 pm
where oh where will my comment show up… Summary. Geoff: P5 is better. Geoff Dissenters: P5 is better. I think somebody should tweet out this link so we could get so more lively discussion on whether the P5 is better or if P5 is better.
Geoff Johnston
April 7, 2016 at 5:02 pm
Haha. This post seemed to cause a lot more controversy than it should have. I’m wondering how many people actually read it.
Walt Hanssen
April 8, 2016 at 10:02 am
Geoff indie schedule is not the same and never will be and I’ve already given you the facts and everyone herein agrees with me. Also BYU can’t get into the top 25 even this year with 10-3 record because there are only 6 G5 games. Look at Utah last year ending at 10-3 and #16 & #17 in polls. If we went 10-3 this year we would be lucky to squeak in around 24-25. If you can’t understand this then you’re closed minded
Also ND is worth at least 1 win over us and maybe more in the minds of the voters in the polls & College Playoff committee Again perception and and tradition mean a lot
Geoff Johnston
April 8, 2016 at 10:29 am
Walt, that is complete nonsense. BYU has been getting in to the top 25 for the last 40+ years with much weaker schedules than the one lined up this season. A 10 win season this year would likely land BYU in the top 15.
Walt Hanssen
April 8, 2016 at 10:03 am
Plus I’m giving you facts and you’re responding with supposition
Walt Hanssen
April 8, 2016 at 2:07 pm
Geoff please write Tom Holmoe and tell him that you don’t believe that joining a P5 conference isn’t really all its made up to be and that you suggest remaining an independent
Geoff Johnston
April 8, 2016 at 3:48 pm
[Sigh]
Walt, show me anywhere where I even remotely suggested that BYU should not join a P5 if invited. The fact that my actual position on this topic is completely eluding you, despite the fact that I have repeatedly and explicitly said P5 is the best option for BYU, shows me that you and I should just pull the plug on this conversation.
Take care.
Walt Hanssen
April 8, 2016 at 5:23 pm
I apologize, write the letter and tell him that you agree on joining a conference but it really is not all it’s made up to be and that it won’t be any better schedulewise to be ranked and make the college playoffs than now. And conclude with saying it won’t be any advantage for all the other sports as well
The point is that it really will be all it’s supposed to be so I that in that respect, your article is false.
Walt Hanssen
April 8, 2016 at 6:38 pm
Or just use the title of your article in your letter to Holmoe: I don’t think it will do what you think it will do…
To a majority of us fans of all sports at BYU, it will do exactly what we think it should do.
This is my last post on this article.
Onward and upward towards a 12 and one season which we never had under Coach Mendenhall
Geoff Johnston
April 8, 2016 at 11:28 pm
Heh. Well thanks Walt. Your incredible skills of persuasion have made me see the light. BYU joining the Big12 will make all of our wildest dreams come true! How could I have been so blind to that fact before??